Some Feminists Hating on the Game, the Seduction Community, and PUAs

I came across a couple of feminist blogs that were really hating on the seduction community:
http://thinkinggirl.wordpress.com/?s=pick+up+artist

http://thinkinggirl.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/professional-pick-up-artists-run-woman-tricking-business-to-help-guys-get-laid/

http://feministpitbull.wordpress.com/?s=pick+up+artist

http://feministpitbull.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/beware-the-open-ended-question-an-opportunity-for-anchors/

I posted a similar comment on each of their pages, but they moderate their comments, so I might not make the cut [we'll see how fair things turn out; considering their whole fight is for women to be true equals, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt], so here it is/they are:

The Same Part

"I think that you have really misunderstood, as well as very broadly generalized, this entire “movement” that is the seduction community. It really is like a self-help group for guys, who want to get their life in order, including the aspect dealing with women. All this stuff really does is allow guys to understand how humans, in general, communicate [specifically sub-communication, like body language, which cues you in on what’s going on in the interaction (with a guy, girl, group, at work, whatever) and where to perform which action (i.e., showing YOUR high value that is attractive to her, demonstrating YOUR vulnerability, etc)] to provide a sense of Attraction as well as true rapport and Comfort and providing genuine feelings and an interesting conversation deeper than the typical interview-style interaction [“what’s your name?”, “where you from?”, “what do you do?”, etc] {NOTE: some will take advantage of this sense of Comfort and trust in order to satisfy their own motives, but not NEARLY all}.

Seriously, this goes MUCH BEYOND just picking up girls. You can look at it for its face-value, as well as by checking out some of the examples of these methods being used, and you can clearly see the perspective that you hold, which is why I'm even bothering to try to engage you to broaden your understanding of all this. Mystery's entire explanation, etc, is based upon YEARS of studying human interactions, specifically that of guys and girls in a bar/night club setting. And, all of his findings/theories are scientifically TRUE - you can easily find these same types of ideas/observations being reported by zoologists studying animal behaviors/interactions AND by psychologists studying human behaviors/interactions. In fact, I recently told MY psychologist/counselor/therapist about this whole community, and SHE [yes, SHE] was incredibly excited about it, and we actually began discussing information that I know [from both my studying psychology and from the community] and that she knows [from human psychology, her area of expertise] - it matched completely, because it was exactly the same. We even acted out a scene, in which I was some guy, and she’s not interested, and SHE says, “I’d do this” and turns her body about 45 degrees away from me. Then I said, “Now, if I do it..”, and she immediately felt exactly what it was that I’d felt when she did it to me. So if knowing this stuff and implementing it, in general, by anyone, is manipulation, then we are all guilty of it, whether consciously or sub-consciously, especially women [who mostly do it on a conscious level when interacting with guys..at least, when blowing them off].

All Mystery actually DID was map out social interactions, and then provide a guide to follow to reach one's goal[s] with a woman, WHATEVER it/they may be. For most, this really does mean finding The One – this whole system simply gives you more options. Having success with women along the way to finding The One is just evidence that you’re improving your ability to “put your best self forward” [like in a job interview (speaking of, is that an example of “deception”? By your definition..yes), except at ALL times] as well as refining down exactly what it is that you are looking for in that ideal woman, so that when you DO meet her, you'll recognize her and be able to succeed in beginning the courtship process [and your eventual life together] properly.

I've met Mystery [as well as Matador, and many other top of the tops instructors out there], and let me tell you this - he is a genuinely charming and intellectual individual. And in relation to girls, he has actually turned DOWN more women than he has slept with – thus, his purpose is not to simply get laid. All of these guys, they aren't just running tricks or manipulating women or anything else like that; in fact, they genuinely love women. For example, Mystery is not going to be telling the same “scripted” stories that Matador would be; the stories/interactions each individual guy has is SUPPOSED TO BE unique to that individual's personality. The words you use are only a vehicle for conveying who you truly are to the woman.

One problem is, a lot of newer guys entering the community don't realize this for shit, and so they are all looking for some “line” that will get them laid, and that's not what this is all about - but you CAN find info to help you get into a girl's pants, if that's what a specific person is looking for, and there are definitely guys out there who are only after that, so don’t think I’m denying this. But, they are single-minded and are only looking for this one thing, and they use other people’s stories/“lines”, which for that other person it is genuine and based on his life but becomes completely incongruent when someone else pretends it to be from his life – this is obviously a lie and very deceptive. This is not what the community tells you to do; however, the community also can’t prevent people from doing this, either. Just like gun control – it’s a weapon, and it can be used for good or evil, but the gun itself is neither. Basically, you get out of the community whatever it is you are seeking.

I really want to go on, deeper, with all this stuff, but I can’t, and I’m sure even now, due to the limitations and restrictions of typed word on a comment board, I’ve already been unable to get the full meaning out of everything I’ve said, but hopefully it’s enough to help you try to be more objective and see things from a moralistic pick-up artist’s viewpoint."

The Different Parts

thinkinggirl's site
"And in regards to Gary and his email, one thing that I just had to comment on was that he states that he treats “women with respect and as human beings..value[s] their opinions and their thoughts”, etc, and he “approaches them to chat” – what is his purpose in approaching random women in the first place? Is it because he found them attractive [whether physically or intellectually..although I’m not sure how he’d know what they’re like by seeing them..but regardless..]? When other men have approached these same women [which, by the way, not all women react this way, so not all women have been approached by men with only one underlying motive], they obviously were also attracted to them to some degree; otherwise, they would’ve have approached them. So, the woman assuming that the guy is attracted to her is not only accurate in the past, but it’s also true for Gary to be approaching her, too. However, the women he is approaching may have been approached by guys who only wanted sex from them or expected it too soon or whatever else, so it’s only natural that they assume he wants the same..which, eventually, he does, as do the women [“so the sexual tension builds naturally between both people over time”]. Also, I was a little confused as to how a woman can respect you treating her well but also expect it, without taking it for granted..? Isn’t that the definition of taking something for granted – expecting things to be a certain way?"

feministpitbull's site
"Um, just a quick note from the first comment [Rocky's, I think]: ANYONE can do something like that, it has nothing to do with one's association [or lack thereof] with the seduction community. If a person has issues, they have issues..

And I genuinely think that you took the drug analogy a little too literally; you did acknowledge that you think he was joking, but the joke wasn't funny in your opinion. The thing to keep in mind here is that not every joke is going to go over well with every single person in the whole world [trust me, I've had my share of "jokes" [usually racial] thrown my way that I definitely didn't find funny..]..I'm sorry for the experience[s] that you've had, but you have to remember: not everyone out there is like that ONE guy; and just because someone can/did have that effect on you does not mean he was a PUA. And even if he was all PUAs do NOT go for this same interaction/effect, and in fact as different as people are, so are their needs and desires, including what they desire from the seduction community.

Onwards.."

Their pick up artist-hating posts are from a little while back, but the two appear to be quite active on their blogs, and even on those posts still, so let's see what [if anything] they have to say..

[It seems someone else got a kick out of this, too:

{LOL and a half.

"When strange men are approaching you, be extremely wary of the open-ended question. The open-ended question is a question that does not have a yes/no answer and requires thought and/or imagination to answer. The last thing I want to do is to advocate paranoia for my readers, but I very much urge caution and care when someone you’ve just met is asking you questions."

Hear that? Guy's asking you questions, it's BAD. At least, open-ended questions are bad. But so are yes/no questions. At least ones that involve a "yes" answer; that's a "yes-ladder." So if a guy asks you a question, it's bad.

"The important thing to avoid is allowing yourself to go into states of ecstacy, euphoria, or pleasure when thinking about a new man you’ve just met. Habitual patterns of emotion or action is *precisely* what you want to look for."

If a guy makes you feel good, it's BAD.

"I don’t care how “different,” “unique,” or “special” they many appear from all the other men you’ve ever met. In fact, the more “different, unique, special,” or “standing out from the crowd,” a man seems to be, the more of a red flag this actually is. This is what PUAs strive for, to stand out in a woman’s memory, thoughts, or viewpoint as being separate and different from all the other men she’s ever met."

RUN AWAY FROM INTERESTING MEN
THEY ARE EVIL
BANALITY IS GOOD

"So, these guys think they are teaching men how to be “natural” with women. It couldn’t be that they’re teaching men how to be sleazy and dishonest? Why is it that teaching men to be confident with women is automatically about tricking women into thinking the man is something he’s not - smooth, suave, charming?"

Ow, my brain. Sooooo, acting charming somehow isn't the same as BEING charming? Is charmingness not in the eye of the beholder? Only if it's taught, I guess. The true naturals get grandfathered in.

"Gross, right? Treat her a little bit like s!#%, then she’ll like you and think you’re clever and charming. Women, learn these methods well. Don’t get sucked in."

So does it not work, or is it eeeeevillllll? The two concerns are mutually exclusive.
But wait! Even being honest about one's intentions is manipulative.

"Note: these ‘direct’ moves include things like how to stand, when and where to touch a woman (on the arm, the on the small of the back), and *exactly what to say*. Yeah. Real “natural.”

She really isn't leaving a lot of room for guys to communicate with women here}

..nice]

~h