Some Feminists Hating on the Game, the Seduction Community, and PUAs

I came across a couple of feminist blogs that were really hating on the seduction community:
http://thinkinggirl.wordpress.com/?s=pick+up+artist

http://thinkinggirl.wordpress.com/2007/01/29/professional-pick-up-artists-run-woman-tricking-business-to-help-guys-get-laid/

http://feministpitbull.wordpress.com/?s=pick+up+artist

http://feministpitbull.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/beware-the-open-ended-question-an-opportunity-for-anchors/

I posted a similar comment on each of their pages, but they moderate their comments, so I might not make the cut [we'll see how fair things turn out; considering their whole fight is for women to be true equals, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt], so here it is/they are:

The Same Part

"I think that you have really misunderstood, as well as very broadly generalized, this entire “movement” that is the seduction community. It really is like a self-help group for guys, who want to get their life in order, including the aspect dealing with women. All this stuff really does is allow guys to understand how humans, in general, communicate [specifically sub-communication, like body language, which cues you in on what’s going on in the interaction (with a guy, girl, group, at work, whatever) and where to perform which action (i.e., showing YOUR high value that is attractive to her, demonstrating YOUR vulnerability, etc)] to provide a sense of Attraction as well as true rapport and Comfort and providing genuine feelings and an interesting conversation deeper than the typical interview-style interaction [“what’s your name?”, “where you from?”, “what do you do?”, etc] {NOTE: some will take advantage of this sense of Comfort and trust in order to satisfy their own motives, but not NEARLY all}.

Seriously, this goes MUCH BEYOND just picking up girls. You can look at it for its face-value, as well as by checking out some of the examples of these methods being used, and you can clearly see the perspective that you hold, which is why I'm even bothering to try to engage you to broaden your understanding of all this. Mystery's entire explanation, etc, is based upon YEARS of studying human interactions, specifically that of guys and girls in a bar/night club setting. And, all of his findings/theories are scientifically TRUE - you can easily find these same types of ideas/observations being reported by zoologists studying animal behaviors/interactions AND by psychologists studying human behaviors/interactions. In fact, I recently told MY psychologist/counselor/therapist about this whole community, and SHE [yes, SHE] was incredibly excited about it, and we actually began discussing information that I know [from both my studying psychology and from the community] and that she knows [from human psychology, her area of expertise] - it matched completely, because it was exactly the same. We even acted out a scene, in which I was some guy, and she’s not interested, and SHE says, “I’d do this” and turns her body about 45 degrees away from me. Then I said, “Now, if I do it..”, and she immediately felt exactly what it was that I’d felt when she did it to me. So if knowing this stuff and implementing it, in general, by anyone, is manipulation, then we are all guilty of it, whether consciously or sub-consciously, especially women [who mostly do it on a conscious level when interacting with guys..at least, when blowing them off].

All Mystery actually DID was map out social interactions, and then provide a guide to follow to reach one's goal[s] with a woman, WHATEVER it/they may be. For most, this really does mean finding The One – this whole system simply gives you more options. Having success with women along the way to finding The One is just evidence that you’re improving your ability to “put your best self forward” [like in a job interview (speaking of, is that an example of “deception”? By your definition..yes), except at ALL times] as well as refining down exactly what it is that you are looking for in that ideal woman, so that when you DO meet her, you'll recognize her and be able to succeed in beginning the courtship process [and your eventual life together] properly.

I've met Mystery [as well as Matador, and many other top of the tops instructors out there], and let me tell you this - he is a genuinely charming and intellectual individual. And in relation to girls, he has actually turned DOWN more women than he has slept with – thus, his purpose is not to simply get laid. All of these guys, they aren't just running tricks or manipulating women or anything else like that; in fact, they genuinely love women. For example, Mystery is not going to be telling the same “scripted” stories that Matador would be; the stories/interactions each individual guy has is SUPPOSED TO BE unique to that individual's personality. The words you use are only a vehicle for conveying who you truly are to the woman.

One problem is, a lot of newer guys entering the community don't realize this for shit, and so they are all looking for some “line” that will get them laid, and that's not what this is all about - but you CAN find info to help you get into a girl's pants, if that's what a specific person is looking for, and there are definitely guys out there who are only after that, so don’t think I’m denying this. But, they are single-minded and are only looking for this one thing, and they use other people’s stories/“lines”, which for that other person it is genuine and based on his life but becomes completely incongruent when someone else pretends it to be from his life – this is obviously a lie and very deceptive. This is not what the community tells you to do; however, the community also can’t prevent people from doing this, either. Just like gun control – it’s a weapon, and it can be used for good or evil, but the gun itself is neither. Basically, you get out of the community whatever it is you are seeking.

I really want to go on, deeper, with all this stuff, but I can’t, and I’m sure even now, due to the limitations and restrictions of typed word on a comment board, I’ve already been unable to get the full meaning out of everything I’ve said, but hopefully it’s enough to help you try to be more objective and see things from a moralistic pick-up artist’s viewpoint."

The Different Parts

thinkinggirl's site
"And in regards to Gary and his email, one thing that I just had to comment on was that he states that he treats “women with respect and as human beings..value[s] their opinions and their thoughts”, etc, and he “approaches them to chat” – what is his purpose in approaching random women in the first place? Is it because he found them attractive [whether physically or intellectually..although I’m not sure how he’d know what they’re like by seeing them..but regardless..]? When other men have approached these same women [which, by the way, not all women react this way, so not all women have been approached by men with only one underlying motive], they obviously were also attracted to them to some degree; otherwise, they would’ve have approached them. So, the woman assuming that the guy is attracted to her is not only accurate in the past, but it’s also true for Gary to be approaching her, too. However, the women he is approaching may have been approached by guys who only wanted sex from them or expected it too soon or whatever else, so it’s only natural that they assume he wants the same..which, eventually, he does, as do the women [“so the sexual tension builds naturally between both people over time”]. Also, I was a little confused as to how a woman can respect you treating her well but also expect it, without taking it for granted..? Isn’t that the definition of taking something for granted – expecting things to be a certain way?"

feministpitbull's site
"Um, just a quick note from the first comment [Rocky's, I think]: ANYONE can do something like that, it has nothing to do with one's association [or lack thereof] with the seduction community. If a person has issues, they have issues..

And I genuinely think that you took the drug analogy a little too literally; you did acknowledge that you think he was joking, but the joke wasn't funny in your opinion. The thing to keep in mind here is that not every joke is going to go over well with every single person in the whole world [trust me, I've had my share of "jokes" [usually racial] thrown my way that I definitely didn't find funny..]..I'm sorry for the experience[s] that you've had, but you have to remember: not everyone out there is like that ONE guy; and just because someone can/did have that effect on you does not mean he was a PUA. And even if he was all PUAs do NOT go for this same interaction/effect, and in fact as different as people are, so are their needs and desires, including what they desire from the seduction community.

Onwards.."

Their pick up artist-hating posts are from a little while back, but the two appear to be quite active on their blogs, and even on those posts still, so let's see what [if anything] they have to say..

[It seems someone else got a kick out of this, too:

{LOL and a half.

"When strange men are approaching you, be extremely wary of the open-ended question. The open-ended question is a question that does not have a yes/no answer and requires thought and/or imagination to answer. The last thing I want to do is to advocate paranoia for my readers, but I very much urge caution and care when someone you’ve just met is asking you questions."

Hear that? Guy's asking you questions, it's BAD. At least, open-ended questions are bad. But so are yes/no questions. At least ones that involve a "yes" answer; that's a "yes-ladder." So if a guy asks you a question, it's bad.

"The important thing to avoid is allowing yourself to go into states of ecstacy, euphoria, or pleasure when thinking about a new man you’ve just met. Habitual patterns of emotion or action is *precisely* what you want to look for."

If a guy makes you feel good, it's BAD.

"I don’t care how “different,” “unique,” or “special” they many appear from all the other men you’ve ever met. In fact, the more “different, unique, special,” or “standing out from the crowd,” a man seems to be, the more of a red flag this actually is. This is what PUAs strive for, to stand out in a woman’s memory, thoughts, or viewpoint as being separate and different from all the other men she’s ever met."

RUN AWAY FROM INTERESTING MEN
THEY ARE EVIL
BANALITY IS GOOD

"So, these guys think they are teaching men how to be “natural” with women. It couldn’t be that they’re teaching men how to be sleazy and dishonest? Why is it that teaching men to be confident with women is automatically about tricking women into thinking the man is something he’s not - smooth, suave, charming?"

Ow, my brain. Sooooo, acting charming somehow isn't the same as BEING charming? Is charmingness not in the eye of the beholder? Only if it's taught, I guess. The true naturals get grandfathered in.

"Gross, right? Treat her a little bit like s!#%, then she’ll like you and think you’re clever and charming. Women, learn these methods well. Don’t get sucked in."

So does it not work, or is it eeeeevillllll? The two concerns are mutually exclusive.
But wait! Even being honest about one's intentions is manipulative.

"Note: these ‘direct’ moves include things like how to stand, when and where to touch a woman (on the arm, the on the small of the back), and *exactly what to say*. Yeah. Real “natural.”

She really isn't leaving a lot of room for guys to communicate with women here}

..nice]

~h

Diamond in the Rough..? More Like - the Diamond IS Rough!

Ok, time for a quick study break..and by quick, of course, I mean like a few hours! Earlier this evening/night, I had an HB want to come by to see me..a quick background follows:

Around the middle/end of February, I went to this hotel to make a booking for me and my gf, who was coming to see me for Spring Break [how tight is that? Spring Break, in the Caribbean?? Nice!]. Afterwards, I'm walking back, when I notice, in this jewelry store [within a "mall" directly across the street from the hotel], this really cute girl watching me through the glass wall. And she keeps looking, and watching, and staring..and at this point, I'm feeling pretty chill [I'd been reviewing some things at the time, the Venusian Arts Handbook (written by Mystery and Lovedrop, and including passages/posts by others, such as Neil Strauss/Style (The Game, StyleLife Academy), Sinn (The Mystery Method), Toecutter, Wilder, Mad Dash, Tyler Durden (Real Social Dynamics), Papa (also RSD), Thundercat (The Art of Approaching, Thundercat's Seduction Lair), Lance Mason (PickUp 101), Cliff (Cliff's List, Cliff's Seduction Newsletter)) as well as Double Your Dating (written by David DeAngelo), and thus I was feeling very confident in being able to do basically whatever the hell I wanted], so I look right back at her as I walk by and mouth/gesture towards her, "Are you bored?" After a couple of tries, she gets it and mouths back "Very!", so I smile and nod and keep walking. I got this feeling of being watched, so I turn around and spot this girl pressed up against the glass in an attempt to keep me in her visual field, and I think 'Fuck it!!' and make a sharp right to go into the mall to find her.

I get into the jewelry store and basically game the shit out of the girl [HBJewelryStore..very creative, I know] and her co-worker. At the time, I didn't have all the in-sights that I have now, just some basic stuff in terms of b.l., and definitely not as clear an understanding of Mystery's stuff as it applies in-field. Whatever I did know, though, I used it like I had no other choice [which I didn't, technically] and wound up with both of their #'s..nice. I stick around for a bit longer [this whole interaction was probably ~1 hour..a little long, I know now, but back then..whatever]. Since then, I probably only saw HBJewelryStore 2 more times, but we texted/talked fairly regularly..

..and then my gf came, and HBJewelryStore saw us nearly every night, with me blowing her off while walking around with my gf, doing my best not to be holding hands or whatever else, but seriously: what's a guy doing, with a girl who's obviously not from around here, at random hours of the night, especially entering and leaving a hotel?? Ah, well..as bad as things seemed to be at the time, I managed to patch things up [it helped that she accidentally mentioned her bf, and I totally called her out on hiding it, which definitely made her thing against me].

After a few attempts at trying to meet up this term, we finally got together today/tonight. I could tell from her b.l. right off that she was not comfortable being around my place, in such an intimiate setting..greaaaat..I also noticed that as hot as she was back at the Jewelry Store, she wasn't as hot now - in part due to her "fake" hair, but also the fact that she was wearing normal clothes [as opposed to her dressy business-style clothes at work], and you could very easily notice that she could probably stand to lose a few pounds..awesome. And she reminded me that she wasn't older than like 19-20 years. But, her face was still hot, and her ass was looking niiice, so I was cool with it haa

So I manage to warm her up, her b.l. opened up, etc, but it took a lot of effort, and then later on, her bf came up ["He's tracking me down.."], and I realized that must be why she's all off right now..which means that whatever chance I might've had to escalate with her tonight, just got that much smaller..but I continue to game anyway, because I could at least go for a kiss-close or in the very least, I could at least set things up for a better finish for next time [whenever that may be, considering my schedule these days]. I decided I wasn't going to be a little bitch about it - I was going to push myself beyond my comfort zone and escalate as much as possible until I got up to the kissing point.

To get into the proper mind-set, I kept reminding myself that obviously she was here, at my place, 1-on-1, despite having a boyfriend, especially a bf who was trying to find her at the moment. So, I began gaming: random shit verbally [verbal push-pulls were a big one, she even said multiple times throughout the evening that I was crazy or I was driving her crazy "because..well, I don't know, you just are!"], however, most of the game I ran on her was non-verbal, body language things, i.e. take-aways, push-pulls, back-turns, disinterest, etc. At 1 point, I was even texting another girl, who had initiated the texting [Jealousy Plotline (SOO $!)..and it reminded me of how easily I could've done that myself with anyone, even a guy friend - all that she needed to realize was that I have other people who want to get a hold of me, especially on a Friday night..and besides, as far as she knows, unless I tell her otherwise, the person/people texting me are female(s) haha]. Next thing I know, not only has she opened up immensly towards me, but I caught her doing the triangular gazing..and it was just on-going! Completely sub-conscious, and at 1 point, I even tested her by cutting the conversational thread and returning her stare, then doing my own triangular gazing, and I could tell she was just going nuts! It was retarded how easily I had gamed this girl, with her bf on her mind/ass trying to track her down, and all she could think about by the time I was done with her was fucking me!

I ran a few compliance tests on her, really just 1 main one over and over until she "scored" better and better: the high-5 into the grasped hand-holding..initially, she completely failed, but I held my ground and got her to break and comply. Then, she reverted back, but it didn't take more than 1 look from me and another attempt for her to laugh and do it right..and then she got it right from there on out, even leading to a hand-hold once or twice. The other thing I noticed was that in terms of physical touching, she was initially closed off to it, even if I simply left my hand somewhere too long, even on/in her hand, but I plowed through, both verbally but especially non-verbally [again, reminding myself that she was here, despite whatever circumstances, so she obviously had interest in being here..regardless of what verbal and/or non-verbal cues she was giving off]. I had an opportunity to do an old favorite of mine [I've used this from long ago, something I discovered on my own and had already realized/analyzed into how and why it works] - wrestling/play-fighting. It didn't go over too well [my standards are pretty high with it, because it has always led to at least a k-close, if not a full-out f-close], but it was enough to get her to be really cool with the touching and rubbing and holding, especially after I had thrown her up against the wall and over-powered her for a good minute or so, just our bodies pressed up against each other..and then I released and walked back to my couch as though nothing had happened, and needless to say, she followed me and sat right up against me the rest of the time. Later on, I decided to pull a comfort-building routine that I hadn't really done before, but it seemed pretty straight-forward, to the point that I could just wing it..and I didn't really have a choice. At the start of it, I barely glance over at her before pointing at my cheek and arching my neck out, basically putting my face/cheek closer to her..and without any hesitation, she leaned in and kissed it. The purpose in doing this [even though I'd already been getting the triangular gazing at this point for at least an hour, on and off] was that I needed to know if she was comfortable enough to follow through on her Attraction urges. Well, guess what? She was..nice. I continue on with the comfort routine that I decided to go with: showing her a bunch of pics from when me and my family were in Egypt, December of 2005 [I think]. After this, I made sure to throw in some A3-type/Comfort topics, like I was really glad she'd come, she's so great or fun or funny or whatever..I wanted to get her as far away from her initial emotional mindset as possible if I was going to be achieving the goal(s) I'd set goal, right?

Finally, her ride arrives - and it's her bf..so what does Hrithik do? I get her to kiss me, while he's waiting on her outside! Kick-ass! I used the same tactic as before: while she was talking [something about leaving and it was nice that she'd come, etc], I was standing a bit away from her, and then just pointed at my left cheek - she came over and kissed it. Then I pointed at my right cheek, and she came back again and kissed it [and stood closer, hoping/expecting that there were going to be more kisses involved]. Good thing I noticed this, because I was feeling like 'maybe she doesn't want to, or maybe/what if she doesn't come in for any more..??', but I pushed past it and pointed at my forehead, and she kissed it, and then I pointed at my lips [cue the dramatic music], and .. .. .. she leaned in and kissed me [after a split-second of hesitation] - nice. And all the while, her bf is outside waiting on her..haha

Next time, I gotta push for further..get her beyond the point of feeling discomfort dealing with me touching her [for example, smacking her ass, being right up on her, etc - the things that would be happening when we're both naked; if she's not fully comfortable doing that clothed, then..yeaaahh..]

~h